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	<title>Comments on: I Pledge Allegiance?</title>
	<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127</link>
	<description>How can you have the last word if you haven't heard the first?</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Joe</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-791</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-791</guid>
					<description>Nice article, I have printed it our and given it to the principle at my childrens school.

Keep on truckin!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article, I have printed it our and given it to the principle at my childrens school.</p>
<p>Keep on truckin!
</p>
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		<title>by: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-712</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 21:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-712</guid>
					<description>I thought the change came earlier than Hitler's rise to power, but I'm on shaky historical ground there.  Perhaps I should take a trip to Wikipedia.

M.A.B.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the change came earlier than Hitler&#8217;s rise to power, but I&#8217;m on shaky historical ground there.  Perhaps I should take a trip to Wikipedia.</p>
<p>M.A.B.
</p>
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		<title>by: TurretinFan</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-710</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 02:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-710</guid>
					<description>MAB,
As another poster pointed out, originally, there was a salute (the stiff right armed one made infamous by Hitler and the National Socialist Party), and the change was likely made to differentiate the good American nationalism from the evil German nationalism.
I disagree that the hand laid flat over the heart is a salute, but I may stand alone.  It is, in my view, either simply the object of the pledge (as in "I pledge my heart to my country") or the basis of reliance for the pledge ("upon my heart" or "cross my heart and hope to die").
The former makes little sense in the context of repeated oaths, but the latter seems (at least to me) more reasonable.
-Turretinfan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MAB,<br />
As another poster pointed out, originally, there was a salute (the stiff right armed one made infamous by Hitler and the National Socialist Party), and the change was likely made to differentiate the good American nationalism from the evil German nationalism.<br />
I disagree that the hand laid flat over the heart is a salute, but I may stand alone.  It is, in my view, either simply the object of the pledge (as in &#8220;I pledge my heart to my country&#8221;) or the basis of reliance for the pledge (&#8221;upon my heart&#8221; or &#8220;cross my heart and hope to die&#8221;).<br />
The former makes little sense in the context of repeated oaths, but the latter seems (at least to me) more reasonable.<br />
-Turretinfan
</p>
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		<title>by: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-705</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2006 17:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-705</guid>
					<description>I grew up in a military family, so I understand the tension.  It is an uneasy spot to be opposed to the hippie peaceniks, but also have some misgivings about the use of our military by a government that has rejected the Supreme Command, so to speak.

I have a law professor who was a Marine most of his life, and I think he has done well trying to balance the tension, but he recently retired, largely because he felt the tension beoming more and more unresolvable.  I don't want to speak too much for him, though, he probably has a clearer explanation.

Your take on the pledge and the hand over the heart is interesting, but I would disagree with your statement that you are promising to do nothing when reciting it.  It is a pledge of allegiance.  A pledge is by definition a promise, only one more strongly and emphatically given.  What you are promising is allegiance to, essentially, the government, not the nation, arguably.  

I don't think such a pledge is in all circumstances inappropriate, but at this time in our history, I do not think our national government is on the Lord's side (none ever perfectly accomplish this, but at least shooting to be on the Lord's side is necessary, I believe).  Therefore, I cannot in good conscience pledge allegiance to any entity I believe to be engaged against my King.  

As Patrick Henry said, roughly, I think to do so would amount to treason against the majesty of heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

As to the hand over the heart, if it is a salute, why do we not simply do the standard military salute?  Do you know?  I'm curious if anyone knows the history of why that salute was selected.

M.A.B.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grew up in a military family, so I understand the tension.  It is an uneasy spot to be opposed to the hippie peaceniks, but also have some misgivings about the use of our military by a government that has rejected the Supreme Command, so to speak.</p>
<p>I have a law professor who was a Marine most of his life, and I think he has done well trying to balance the tension, but he recently retired, largely because he felt the tension beoming more and more unresolvable.  I don&#8217;t want to speak too much for him, though, he probably has a clearer explanation.</p>
<p>Your take on the pledge and the hand over the heart is interesting, but I would disagree with your statement that you are promising to do nothing when reciting it.  It is a pledge of allegiance.  A pledge is by definition a promise, only one more strongly and emphatically given.  What you are promising is allegiance to, essentially, the government, not the nation, arguably.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think such a pledge is in all circumstances inappropriate, but at this time in our history, I do not think our national government is on the Lord&#8217;s side (none ever perfectly accomplish this, but at least shooting to be on the Lord&#8217;s side is necessary, I believe).  Therefore, I cannot in good conscience pledge allegiance to any entity I believe to be engaged against my King.  </p>
<p>As Patrick Henry said, roughly, I think to do so would amount to treason against the majesty of heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.</p>
<p>As to the hand over the heart, if it is a salute, why do we not simply do the standard military salute?  Do you know?  I&#8217;m curious if anyone knows the history of why that salute was selected.</p>
<p>M.A.B.
</p>
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		<title>by: David C. Moody</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-701</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2006 03:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-701</guid>
					<description>I enjoyed the post as well.  I personally have had misgivings about the Pledge of Allegiance (chiefly with the word "indivisible" -- some Confederate misgivings there), but I did not liken it to an oath.  In the military, when you take an oath, you say &lt;I&gt;what you are going to do&lt;/I&gt;.  I think all oaths are that way.

Instead, in the Pledge of Allegiance, you state &lt;I&gt;what you believe&lt;/I&gt;.  This is why I think a Christian school should substitute the Apostles' Creed or Lord's Prayer in the place of the Pledge of Allegiance.  They are being taught that their loyalty is first to their country.  I have nothing against patriotism, but quite frankly it bothers me when children confess their beliefs about their country every day.  It seems overkill, and it seems quite obvious that the state has been our chief religion.

&lt;I&gt;With reference to the hand over the heart&lt;/I&gt;, I don't buy that you are swearing by yourself.  As I already noted, in an oath you promise to do something.  In the pledge you are promising to do nothing.  Also, when singing the National Anthem, you are also to put your hand over your heart.  The same is true during colors ceremonies on bases.  Putting your hand over your heart is like saluting; it's not like swearing.  I do think a decent amount of respect should be given to our country (not to one man, and not to one form of government either -- but certainly our country is a bigger thing than that).

Again, I liked your comments.  Most of my comments will only make sense you if try to imagine things from a military perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed the post as well.  I personally have had misgivings about the Pledge of Allegiance (chiefly with the word &#8220;indivisible&#8221; &#8212; some Confederate misgivings there), but I did not liken it to an oath.  In the military, when you take an oath, you say <I>what you are going to do</I>.  I think all oaths are that way.</p>
<p>Instead, in the Pledge of Allegiance, you state <I>what you believe</I>.  This is why I think a Christian school should substitute the Apostles&#8217; Creed or Lord&#8217;s Prayer in the place of the Pledge of Allegiance.  They are being taught that their loyalty is first to their country.  I have nothing against patriotism, but quite frankly it bothers me when children confess their beliefs about their country every day.  It seems overkill, and it seems quite obvious that the state has been our chief religion.</p>
<p><I>With reference to the hand over the heart</I>, I don&#8217;t buy that you are swearing by yourself.  As I already noted, in an oath you promise to do something.  In the pledge you are promising to do nothing.  Also, when singing the National Anthem, you are also to put your hand over your heart.  The same is true during colors ceremonies on bases.  Putting your hand over your heart is like saluting; it&#8217;s not like swearing.  I do think a decent amount of respect should be given to our country (not to one man, and not to one form of government either &#8212; but certainly our country is a bigger thing than that).</p>
<p>Again, I liked your comments.  Most of my comments will only make sense you if try to imagine things from a military perspective.
</p>
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		<title>by: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-678</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 23:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-678</guid>
					<description>Well, it seems plausible from what you have said here, because when swearing on the Bible, the hand is placed upon it, often with the other hand raised.  I wonder if that signifies reliance upon God?  Velly interessssstink.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it seems plausible from what you have said here, because when swearing on the Bible, the hand is placed upon it, often with the other hand raised.  I wonder if that signifies reliance upon God?  Velly interessssstink.
</p>
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		<title>by: TurretinFan</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-677</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 19:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-677</guid>
					<description>MAB,
There seems to be evidence that it was originally intended to indication devotion of one's heart.  Thus, the gesture would be viewed as designating the thing devoted.
See this account:
"On June 14, 1889, George Balch, a kindergarten teacher in New York City, celebrated Flag Birthday in his classroom by introducing the first verbal salute to the flag. His was a simple pledge of fealty and devotion. "I give my heart and my hand to my country—one country, one language, one flag." The words were accompanied by a ritualistic physical salute. Students touched first their foreheads, then their hearts and then recited the pledge with a right arm stretched out and palms down in the direction of the flag. When they completed the salute they chanted, "One County! One Language! One Flag!""
Found here:
http://www.newrules.org/voice2004/askdave/24askdave.html

However, it has also been treated as though the hand were being used for the oath-taking purpose, and thus as though indicating the thing relied upon.
See this account:
"According to Colonel Moss, no disrespect is displayed by giving the Pledge with a gloved hand over the heart, but he calls our attention to the fact that an Army Officer or an enlisted man always removes his right glove upon taking his oath as a witness. The Daughters of the American Revolution follow the custom of having the right hand ungloved."
Found here: http://www.flagday.org/Pages/StoryofPledge.html

Hence my careful worded criticism read: "as though."
-Turretinfan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MAB,<br />
There seems to be evidence that it was originally intended to indication devotion of one&#8217;s heart.  Thus, the gesture would be viewed as designating the thing devoted.<br />
See this account:<br />
&#8220;On June 14, 1889, George Balch, a kindergarten teacher in New York City, celebrated Flag Birthday in his classroom by introducing the first verbal salute to the flag. His was a simple pledge of fealty and devotion. &#8220;I give my heart and my hand to my country—one country, one language, one flag.&#8221; The words were accompanied by a ritualistic physical salute. Students touched first their foreheads, then their hearts and then recited the pledge with a right arm stretched out and palms down in the direction of the flag. When they completed the salute they chanted, &#8220;One County! One Language! One Flag!&#8221;"<br />
Found here:<br />
<a href='http://www.newrules.org/voice2004/askdave/24askdave.html' rel='nofollow'>http://www.newrules.org/voice2004/askdave/24askdave.html</a></p>
<p>However, it has also been treated as though the hand were being used for the oath-taking purpose, and thus as though indicating the thing relied upon.<br />
See this account:<br />
&#8220;According to Colonel Moss, no disrespect is displayed by giving the Pledge with a gloved hand over the heart, but he calls our attention to the fact that an Army Officer or an enlisted man always removes his right glove upon taking his oath as a witness. The Daughters of the American Revolution follow the custom of having the right hand ungloved.&#8221;<br />
Found here: <a href='http://www.flagday.org/Pages/StoryofPledge.html' rel='nofollow'>http://www.flagday.org/Pages/StoryofPledge.html</a></p>
<p>Hence my careful worded criticism read: &#8220;as though.&#8221;<br />
-Turretinfan
</p>
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		<title>by: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-674</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 01:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-674</guid>
					<description>That the hand over the heart is akin to swearing by one's own name is interesting.  Seems plausible.  Do you have any historical support that this is the intended meaning?

M.A.B</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That the hand over the heart is akin to swearing by one&#8217;s own name is interesting.  Seems plausible.  Do you have any historical support that this is the intended meaning?</p>
<p>M.A.B
</p>
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		<title>by: TurretinFan</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-672</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-672</guid>
					<description>MAB,
Building on your comments, an additional objection to the pledge could be its humanistic liturgy.

The pledge is not made either:
(a) calling upon God as a witness to the pledge, or
(b) calling upon God for assistance in keeping the pledge.  Indeed, even the term "under God" was added to the pledge as a bit of an after-thought.

Instead, as you note, the custom is for the one pledging to place his hand over his heart, as though to swear by his own name (for he cannot swear by any higher) that his intent is true, and by his own strength that he will perform.

Both of these would seem to be further valid objections to the pledge as it currently stands.

-Turretinfan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MAB,<br />
Building on your comments, an additional objection to the pledge could be its humanistic liturgy.</p>
<p>The pledge is not made either:<br />
(a) calling upon God as a witness to the pledge, or<br />
(b) calling upon God for assistance in keeping the pledge.  Indeed, even the term &#8220;under God&#8221; was added to the pledge as a bit of an after-thought.</p>
<p>Instead, as you note, the custom is for the one pledging to place his hand over his heart, as though to swear by his own name (for he cannot swear by any higher) that his intent is true, and by his own strength that he will perform.</p>
<p>Both of these would seem to be further valid objections to the pledge as it currently stands.</p>
<p>-Turretinfan
</p>
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		<title>by: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-667</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/127#comment-667</guid>
					<description>I appreciate this, as well.  I discontinued my flag-allegiance-pledging when I read a brief critique many years ago, but since I spend little time in the indoctrination camps (government schule), and only catch a Braves game every other year or so (at which the beer in one hand and the hotdog in the other make my failure to place hand over heart less odious to my fellow sports worshipper joining me in the solemn occasion), my decision is not on my mind often.

Just last week, however, I took my daughter to a zoning meeting in Amherst County, because the siting of a regional jail was on the agenda (if anyone wants me to help with date ideas, I am a mastermind in that area, as you can tell).  Of course, we were all duly instructed to rise and pledge.  My daughter and I rose, but didn't pledge.  She didn't ask or say anything, but I suspect the fact that she was looking around quizzically got some attention.

I was afraid she might do something really embarassing like recite the Lord's Prayer.

It is good to have a refresher on my specific objections to it, and this was actually fuller than what I had previously read.  So, thank you, again.

You didn't mention the salute that is to accompany the pledge (remember:  "Attention! Salute! Pledge!")  Salute being the whole hand over the heart gesture.  I'm sure you know that originally the salute consisted of jutting the right arm forward into the air at a slight upward angle, and with the hand flattened out and pointing forward (towards the sun, perhaps).  

Adolf thought it looked real neat, too.  Of course, our statism is warmer and cozier than his, and so we want our government to be near to our heart, filling it with all its benevolent protection.  Thus the symbol of hand to the breast.  

I don't actualy know the stated reason for the change, but I imagine it has something to do with how tightly packed the sardines (pupils/subjects) are in the indoctrination chambers of our government institutions for young citizens.  The original salute probably resulted in too many head and neck injuries resulting from wide-eyed enthusiastic automatons jabbing their excited little hands forward into the spinal cords of their cellmates unfortunate enough to have been ordered to stand on a spot directly in front of these future teachers and social workers.  

I imagine an agency was created to look into the problem (National Board of Allegiance Pledging Hazard Reduction, perhaps).  And after twenty years or so, 200 bureacrats probably came up with the idea accidentally when one of them,in the middle of a pledge, had his monocle fall out of his left eye.  Instinctively, he retracted his outstretched right arm to halt the lense's descent, and lo and behold, hand met glass in the nick of time upon the left breast--over the heart, no less.  

And thus I suspect our current salute was scientifically arrived at by that government which is so eager to secure perpetual oblations of allegiance pledging, rising like a sweet-smelling aroma to its throneroom--the government school principal's office.

M.A.B.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate this, as well.  I discontinued my flag-allegiance-pledging when I read a brief critique many years ago, but since I spend little time in the indoctrination camps (government schule), and only catch a Braves game every other year or so (at which the beer in one hand and the hotdog in the other make my failure to place hand over heart less odious to my fellow sports worshipper joining me in the solemn occasion), my decision is not on my mind often.</p>
<p>Just last week, however, I took my daughter to a zoning meeting in Amherst County, because the siting of a regional jail was on the agenda (if anyone wants me to help with date ideas, I am a mastermind in that area, as you can tell).  Of course, we were all duly instructed to rise and pledge.  My daughter and I rose, but didn&#8217;t pledge.  She didn&#8217;t ask or say anything, but I suspect the fact that she was looking around quizzically got some attention.</p>
<p>I was afraid she might do something really embarassing like recite the Lord&#8217;s Prayer.</p>
<p>It is good to have a refresher on my specific objections to it, and this was actually fuller than what I had previously read.  So, thank you, again.</p>
<p>You didn&#8217;t mention the salute that is to accompany the pledge (remember:  &#8220;Attention! Salute! Pledge!&#8221;)  Salute being the whole hand over the heart gesture.  I&#8217;m sure you know that originally the salute consisted of jutting the right arm forward into the air at a slight upward angle, and with the hand flattened out and pointing forward (towards the sun, perhaps).  </p>
<p>Adolf thought it looked real neat, too.  Of course, our statism is warmer and cozier than his, and so we want our government to be near to our heart, filling it with all its benevolent protection.  Thus the symbol of hand to the breast.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t actualy know the stated reason for the change, but I imagine it has something to do with how tightly packed the sardines (pupils/subjects) are in the indoctrination chambers of our government institutions for young citizens.  The original salute probably resulted in too many head and neck injuries resulting from wide-eyed enthusiastic automatons jabbing their excited little hands forward into the spinal cords of their cellmates unfortunate enough to have been ordered to stand on a spot directly in front of these future teachers and social workers.  </p>
<p>I imagine an agency was created to look into the problem (National Board of Allegiance Pledging Hazard Reduction, perhaps).  And after twenty years or so, 200 bureacrats probably came up with the idea accidentally when one of them,in the middle of a pledge, had his monocle fall out of his left eye.  Instinctively, he retracted his outstretched right arm to halt the lense&#8217;s descent, and lo and behold, hand met glass in the nick of time upon the left breast&#8211;over the heart, no less.  </p>
<p>And thus I suspect our current salute was scientifically arrived at by that government which is so eager to secure perpetual oblations of allegiance pledging, rising like a sweet-smelling aroma to its throneroom&#8211;the government school principal&#8217;s office.</p>
<p>M.A.B.
</p>
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