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	<title>Comments on: Augustinian Conspiracy Theory</title>
	<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247</link>
	<description>How can you have the last word if you haven't heard the first?</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-27555</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-27555</guid>
					<description>If his point simply had to do with the need for evidence, we cd welcome him, even if it were taken overboard a bit in the manner of McPhee. If this were the main burden of Morey's diatribe, that would be okay. But think about it: he has accepted the official 9/11 story &lt;em&gt;purely on the basis of authority&lt;/em&gt;. (And just for the record, if there was ever a conspiracy theory, it is the govt's official story about the 9/11.) He does not have evidence in his hand for most of the assertions, he simply believes the narration of that alleged evidence given by officials. For most Americans, and probably for Morey as well, the "evidence" for the story is simply the fact that the buildings fell down!

Likewise, he asserts that "conspiracy theories" take away attention from the "true and very real conspirators," the Muslim terrorists, and the "islamo-fascist" conspiracy. Now Morey obviously &lt;a rel="nofollow" href="http://butler-harris.org/archives/73" rel="nofollow"&gt;does not know what fascism is&lt;/a&gt;; and he also does not know that fascists are "conspiring." He is simply aping what he has been told.

Studying conspiracies leads one to neglect "the two reasons why  they were left on the planet" (evangelism of unsaved and education of the saved). This philosophy of history, as a mere waiting-room for eternity in which to evangelize the lost is a truncated and ultimately anti-Christian view, though shared by many fundamentalists.

(Note that Morey evidently supports the "war against islamo-fascism," and thus himself see more than just the two reasons earlier given "why we were left on the planet.")

He criticizes the slanderous tendency of some conspiracy theories, but by insinuating that all conspiracy theorists are intentionally trying to deceive, he shows himself to be a slanderer of the saints, and guilty of the very thing he accuses them of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If his point simply had to do with the need for evidence, we cd welcome him, even if it were taken overboard a bit in the manner of McPhee. If this were the main burden of Morey&#8217;s diatribe, that would be okay. But think about it: he has accepted the official 9/11 story <em>purely on the basis of authority</em>. (And just for the record, if there was ever a conspiracy theory, it is the govt&#8217;s official story about the 9/11.) He does not have evidence in his hand for most of the assertions, he simply believes the narration of that alleged evidence given by officials. For most Americans, and probably for Morey as well, the &#8220;evidence&#8221; for the story is simply the fact that the buildings fell down!</p>
<p>Likewise, he asserts that &#8220;conspiracy theories&#8221; take away attention from the &#8220;true and very real conspirators,&#8221; the Muslim terrorists, and the &#8220;islamo-fascist&#8221; conspiracy. Now Morey obviously <a rel="nofollow" href="http://butler-harris.org/archives/73" rel="nofollow">does not know what fascism is</a>; and he also does not know that fascists are &#8220;conspiring.&#8221; He is simply aping what he has been told.</p>
<p>Studying conspiracies leads one to neglect &#8220;the two reasons why  they were left on the planet&#8221; (evangelism of unsaved and education of the saved). This philosophy of history, as a mere waiting-room for eternity in which to evangelize the lost is a truncated and ultimately anti-Christian view, though shared by many fundamentalists.</p>
<p>(Note that Morey evidently supports the &#8220;war against islamo-fascism,&#8221; and thus himself see more than just the two reasons earlier given &#8220;why we were left on the planet.&#8221;)</p>
<p>He criticizes the slanderous tendency of some conspiracy theories, but by insinuating that all conspiracy theorists are intentionally trying to deceive, he shows himself to be a slanderer of the saints, and guilty of the very thing he accuses them of.
</p>
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		<title>by: MRB</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-27358</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-27358</guid>
					<description>Josh -

Morey is as shallow on conspiracies as he is on the only other subject I have read him on, Islam.  A few observations.

1) Aside from his abortive attempt to define or characterize conspiracy, he goes on to show he cannot even use the word properly by calling Abel's murder by Cain a conspiracy. How can one discuss conspiracies intelligently if he is even able to use let alone define the word?
2) Morey is really attempting to define conspiracy theorists rather than conspiracies.  Conspiracy theorists, says Morey, are those who believe that secret forces run the world.  Thus defined he can use his theological expertise to demonstrate that this contradicts biblical teaching that God controls all things.  To borrow from Lewis Carroll, there's glory for you.

3) Part I of the video gives the impression that there are no conspiracies, but part II goes on to  say that just about every human political endeavor involves conspiracies.  Which is it?

4) I loved the the first minute or so of Morey's first appearance.  It was filled with as much vitriol and ad hominem as the Saturday Night Live 's "Point-Counterpoint" between Jane Curtin and Dan Aykroyd.  Aykroyd used to always begin with, "Jane you ignorant slut."  (For those who are unfamiliar, see &lt;a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.jibjab.com/view/159106" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; for audio of one of their "debates.")

5) We can glean one important lesson from this otherwise unhelpful presentation.  Despite the fact that the City of Man is continually conspiring against the City of God, Jesus is King and will conquer all his enemies.  (Well, this is not quite Morey's lesson.  He speaks generally about providence and not about the power and authority of Christ's rule.)

6) As to your question, just patiently and kindly point out the errors, distortions and rhetorical tricks.  We are all dupes at some level so don't get too frustrated by those who can't see what seems obvious.  And besides, it often takes more than arguments to move one away from old and comfortable positions.  To have a genuinely Augustinian view of the world will take something like a gestalt switch for most Christians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh -</p>
<p>Morey is as shallow on conspiracies as he is on the only other subject I have read him on, Islam.  A few observations.</p>
<p>1) Aside from his abortive attempt to define or characterize conspiracy, he goes on to show he cannot even use the word properly by calling Abel&#8217;s murder by Cain a conspiracy. How can one discuss conspiracies intelligently if he is even able to use let alone define the word?<br />
2) Morey is really attempting to define conspiracy theorists rather than conspiracies.  Conspiracy theorists, says Morey, are those who believe that secret forces run the world.  Thus defined he can use his theological expertise to demonstrate that this contradicts biblical teaching that God controls all things.  To borrow from Lewis Carroll, there&#8217;s glory for you.</p>
<p>3) Part I of the video gives the impression that there are no conspiracies, but part II goes on to  say that just about every human political endeavor involves conspiracies.  Which is it?</p>
<p>4) I loved the the first minute or so of Morey&#8217;s first appearance.  It was filled with as much vitriol and ad hominem as the Saturday Night Live &#8217;s &#8220;Point-Counterpoint&#8221; between Jane Curtin and Dan Aykroyd.  Aykroyd used to always begin with, &#8220;Jane you ignorant slut.&#8221;  (For those who are unfamiliar, see <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.jibjab.com/view/159106" rel="nofollow">here</a> for audio of one of their &#8220;debates.&#8221;)</p>
<p>5) We can glean one important lesson from this otherwise unhelpful presentation.  Despite the fact that the City of Man is continually conspiring against the City of God, Jesus is King and will conquer all his enemies.  (Well, this is not quite Morey&#8217;s lesson.  He speaks generally about providence and not about the power and authority of Christ&#8217;s rule.)</p>
<p>6) As to your question, just patiently and kindly point out the errors, distortions and rhetorical tricks.  We are all dupes at some level so don&#8217;t get too frustrated by those who can&#8217;t see what seems obvious.  And besides, it often takes more than arguments to move one away from old and comfortable positions.  To have a genuinely Augustinian view of the world will take something like a gestalt switch for most Christians.
</p>
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		<title>by: Josh</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-27333</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-27333</guid>
					<description>Pasted below is a perfect example of how those in the pews get brainwashed on a daily basis with more and more neo-con lies and why the church as  whole is in the sorry state that it is.  This man, Robert Morey, was my pastor for a couple of years (until I became wise enough to get the heck out of there).  He launched a crusade against everyone in the church who believed that the popular conspiracy theories promoted by the establishment media were a lie.  He got to the point where he said that those affirming the concept of some sort of conspiracy (being led by evil men in control) were unregenerate. There was a mass witch hunt and those who refused to submit were slandered and rejected.  Here is his error-filled video (he can't even define the word conspiracy correctly!) where he (attempts) to counter much of the information you've laid out here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODrjpxoJVmk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sBRWFeV4lE&#38;feature=related

TJH and MB: How do we reach people who've been brainwashed by men like Morey? How would you counter some of his arguments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pasted below is a perfect example of how those in the pews get brainwashed on a daily basis with more and more neo-con lies and why the church as  whole is in the sorry state that it is.  This man, Robert Morey, was my pastor for a couple of years (until I became wise enough to get the heck out of there).  He launched a crusade against everyone in the church who believed that the popular conspiracy theories promoted by the establishment media were a lie.  He got to the point where he said that those affirming the concept of some sort of conspiracy (being led by evil men in control) were unregenerate. There was a mass witch hunt and those who refused to submit were slandered and rejected.  Here is his error-filled video (he can&#8217;t even define the word conspiracy correctly!) where he (attempts) to counter much of the information you&#8217;ve laid out here:</p>
<p><a href='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODrjpxoJVmk' rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODrjpxoJVmk</a></p>
<p><a href='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sBRWFeV4lE&amp;feature=related' rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sBRWFeV4lE&amp;feature=related</a></p>
<p>TJH and MB: How do we reach people who&#8217;ve been brainwashed by men like Morey? How would you counter some of his arguments?
</p>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-10749</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-10749</guid>
					<description>Well MKM I think you tip your hand with the word "irresponsible," a favorite of the academic establishment when they feel the need to vent but have nothing of substance to say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well MKM I think you tip your hand with the word &#8220;irresponsible,&#8221; a favorite of the academic establishment when they feel the need to vent but have nothing of substance to say.
</p>
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		<title>by: mkm</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-10733</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 02:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-10733</guid>
					<description>It is inaccurate and intellectually irresponsible to imply that Augustine was a conspiracy theorist like a disturbing percentage of readers of this blog. A pschological or sociological analysis of the author and said readers, done well, would be more illuminating.
To avoid misunderstanding, yes, there are a few conspiracies out there, but not nearly as many as people of a certain mindset think there are. But, of course, one can never disprove their mindset because difficulty of proof, to them, merely indicates a more complex and insidious conspiracy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is inaccurate and intellectually irresponsible to imply that Augustine was a conspiracy theorist like a disturbing percentage of readers of this blog. A pschological or sociological analysis of the author and said readers, done well, would be more illuminating.<br />
To avoid misunderstanding, yes, there are a few conspiracies out there, but not nearly as many as people of a certain mindset think there are. But, of course, one can never disprove their mindset because difficulty of proof, to them, merely indicates a more complex and insidious conspiracy!
</p>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-10307</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-10307</guid>
					<description>Joshu -- that's exciting. Bring us up to date from time to time on your MA thesis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshu &#8212; that&#8217;s exciting. Bring us up to date from time to time on your MA thesis.
</p>
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		<title>by: Joshu</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-10184</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/247#comment-10184</guid>
					<description>Excellent post.  

Pardon the label, but this is excellent applied Presuppositionalsim.  I have a great interest in taking presup methods outside of apologetics, specifically into reforming culture—which is simply to say I’m interested in obeying Christ.  

However, one of the challenges to your thesis coming from those inside the Reformed world is the faulty historiographical methods that are out there.  Here’s a choice comment by Frame, writing about Richard Muller:

“His statement that philosophical theology ‘must not utilize Scripture or churchly standards of truth: it rests on the truths of logic and reason’ (p. 139) is horrendous. I am amazed that such an intelligent writer can pen a sentence like that while endorsing presuppositional apologetics! The whole point of presuppositional apologetics, a biblical point in my view, is that in all areas of life we must ‘utilize Scripture and churchly standards of truth.’”   

Full article here: http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1994Muller.htm

I’ve often been puzzled at some of my Christian brothers who grant the myth of epistemological neutrality in defending the faith with unbelievers, but yet assume neutrality in other areas of their lives, say in giving their kids to the government where they can still learn “religiously neutral” subjects, or in reading history as if it is religiously neutral.

Another challenge, frankly, comes from some faculty members at Westminster Ca and guys like Lee Irons, who advocate the same sort of neutrality, not in historiography (though they might), but in reforming culture in general.  We need to use natural law for those areas life (culture and politics) which are under “common grace” and not redemptive.  Just some thoughts. Gotta run for now. 
 
Again, good post.  It’s giving me ideas for my MA thesis!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post.  </p>
<p>Pardon the label, but this is excellent applied Presuppositionalsim.  I have a great interest in taking presup methods outside of apologetics, specifically into reforming culture—which is simply to say I’m interested in obeying Christ.  </p>
<p>However, one of the challenges to your thesis coming from those inside the Reformed world is the faulty historiographical methods that are out there.  Here’s a choice comment by Frame, writing about Richard Muller:</p>
<p>“His statement that philosophical theology ‘must not utilize Scripture or churchly standards of truth: it rests on the truths of logic and reason’ (p. 139) is horrendous. I am amazed that such an intelligent writer can pen a sentence like that while endorsing presuppositional apologetics! The whole point of presuppositional apologetics, a biblical point in my view, is that in all areas of life we must ‘utilize Scripture and churchly standards of truth.’”   </p>
<p>Full article here: <a href='http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1994Muller.htm' rel='nofollow'>http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1994Muller.htm</a></p>
<p>I’ve often been puzzled at some of my Christian brothers who grant the myth of epistemological neutrality in defending the faith with unbelievers, but yet assume neutrality in other areas of their lives, say in giving their kids to the government where they can still learn “religiously neutral” subjects, or in reading history as if it is religiously neutral.</p>
<p>Another challenge, frankly, comes from some faculty members at Westminster Ca and guys like Lee Irons, who advocate the same sort of neutrality, not in historiography (though they might), but in reforming culture in general.  We need to use natural law for those areas life (culture and politics) which are under “common grace” and not redemptive.  Just some thoughts. Gotta run for now. </p>
<p>Again, good post.  It’s giving me ideas for my MA thesis!
</p>
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