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	<title>Comments on: Wittgenstein – the Agrarian Philosopher</title>
	<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254</link>
	<description>How can you have the last word if you haven't heard the first?</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: MRB</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-17417</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-17417</guid>
					<description>Perhaps my favorite quote from the collection above is:

"We could . . . say: Hate between men comes from our cutting ourselves off from each other. Because we don’t want anyone else to look inside us, since it’s not a pretty sight in there.
Of course, you must continue to feel ashamed of what’s inside you, but not ashamed of yourself before your fellow-men."

W gives us insight into what Christian thinkers have called, in typically soft and lifeless language, "transparency."  Before God we are naked an ashamed.  We need a covering.  But with our fellow men, we should not be ashamed of our nakedness.  Not because we are pure, of course, but because we must resist hypocrisy with every fiber of our being.

This is, I believe, what W was getting at in the last quotation, &lt;em&gt;Laß uns menschlich sein&lt;/em&gt;.  One of the highest compliments W would give was to say, "you are real human being."  A real human being is one who recognizes the struggle of life and has the courage to face it.  While at the same time recognizes that without grace the struggle will be futile .  ("I sit astride life like a bad rider on a horse. I only owe it to the horse’s good nature that I am not thrown off at this very moment.")

This is worlds apart from the modern maxim, "keep it real."  "Keeping it real" means accepting all one's meanness and wickedness without any sense of shame or guilt.  Becoming human means struggling against one's meanness and wickedness and yet not pretending to be anything other than he is.

Many of us succeed at "keeping it real," and fail at being human.   This is why W says "a confession has to be a part of your new life."  With a confession before our fellow men we are able to "aim at being loved without being admired."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps my favorite quote from the collection above is:</p>
<p>&#8220;We could . . . say: Hate between men comes from our cutting ourselves off from each other. Because we don’t want anyone else to look inside us, since it’s not a pretty sight in there.<br />
Of course, you must continue to feel ashamed of what’s inside you, but not ashamed of yourself before your fellow-men.&#8221;</p>
<p>W gives us insight into what Christian thinkers have called, in typically soft and lifeless language, &#8220;transparency.&#8221;  Before God we are naked an ashamed.  We need a covering.  But with our fellow men, we should not be ashamed of our nakedness.  Not because we are pure, of course, but because we must resist hypocrisy with every fiber of our being.</p>
<p>This is, I believe, what W was getting at in the last quotation, <em>Laß uns menschlich sein</em>.  One of the highest compliments W would give was to say, &#8220;you are real human being.&#8221;  A real human being is one who recognizes the struggle of life and has the courage to face it.  While at the same time recognizes that without grace the struggle will be futile .  (&#8221;I sit astride life like a bad rider on a horse. I only owe it to the horse’s good nature that I am not thrown off at this very moment.&#8221;)</p>
<p>This is worlds apart from the modern maxim, &#8220;keep it real.&#8221;  &#8220;Keeping it real&#8221; means accepting all one&#8217;s meanness and wickedness without any sense of shame or guilt.  Becoming human means struggling against one&#8217;s meanness and wickedness and yet not pretending to be anything other than he is.</p>
<p>Many of us succeed at &#8220;keeping it real,&#8221; and fail at being human.   This is why W says &#8220;a confession has to be a part of your new life.&#8221;  With a confession before our fellow men we are able to &#8220;aim at being loved without being admired.&#8221;
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		<title>by: MRB</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-12263</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 08:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-12263</guid>
					<description>Joshua -

Start with &lt;em&gt;Culture and Value&lt;/em&gt;.  It is a chronological collection of his thoughts on diverse subjects.  Then read Ray Monk's excellent biography, &lt;em&gt;LW: The Duty of Genius&lt;/em&gt;.  These two works will put the hook in you.  After that read the&lt;em&gt; Tractatus&lt;/em&gt; along with a commentary.  When finished with this, write back and I will give you more suggestions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua -</p>
<p>Start with <em>Culture and Value</em>.  It is a chronological collection of his thoughts on diverse subjects.  Then read Ray Monk&#8217;s excellent biography, <em>LW: The Duty of Genius</em>.  These two works will put the hook in you.  After that read the<em> Tractatus</em> along with a commentary.  When finished with this, write back and I will give you more suggestions.
</p>
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		<title>by: Joshua L.</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-12219</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 03:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-12219</guid>
					<description>To the uninitiated, which of Wittgenstein's works would you recommend to read first? Are there any that exhibit his agrarian tendencies more than others?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the uninitiated, which of Wittgenstein&#8217;s works would you recommend to read first? Are there any that exhibit his agrarian tendencies more than others?
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		<title>by: John Fraiser</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-11995</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-11995</guid>
					<description>Perhaps it's evident to you, but I fail to see how the majority of the quotes you provide support your thesis of Wittgenstein as agrarian. I agree with you that Wittgenstein was rather agrarian (he loved to garden. After his Tractatus he left the academy to, among other things, garden). It's hard to characterize Wittgenstein with the statement that he distrusted science. While this is largely true of the later Wittgenstein it is not so with the early Wittgenstein who's Tractatus is so thoroughly modern and promotes a scientific approach to language in the vein of Frege.

I assume you mean to refer mostly to the later Wittgenstein when you speak of his agrarianism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps it&#8217;s evident to you, but I fail to see how the majority of the quotes you provide support your thesis of Wittgenstein as agrarian. I agree with you that Wittgenstein was rather agrarian (he loved to garden. After his Tractatus he left the academy to, among other things, garden). It&#8217;s hard to characterize Wittgenstein with the statement that he distrusted science. While this is largely true of the later Wittgenstein it is not so with the early Wittgenstein who&#8217;s Tractatus is so thoroughly modern and promotes a scientific approach to language in the vein of Frege.</p>
<p>I assume you mean to refer mostly to the later Wittgenstein when you speak of his agrarianism.
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		<title>by: secret agent +J(o)&#62;S~H**</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-11527</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-11527</guid>
					<description>Agreed</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-11525</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:38:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-11525</guid>
					<description>Josh -- interesting; but I don't think Wittgenstein's point is quite the same as what is being asserted by the moon movie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh &#8212; interesting; but I don&#8217;t think Wittgenstein&#8217;s point is quite the same as what is being asserted by the moon movie.
</p>
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		<title>by: secret agent +J(o)&#62;S~H**</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-11524</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/254#comment-11524</guid>
					<description>"our whole system of physics forbids us to beleive that someone could go to the moon" Wittgenstein

"we believe that it isnt possible to get to the moon; but there might be people who believe that it is possible and that it sometimes happens.  we say: these people do not know a lot that we know.  and, let them be never so sure of their belief-they are wrong and we know it.  if we compare our suystem of knowledge with theirs then theirs is evidently the poorer one by far"
Wittgenstein

well we havent made it to the moon yet - weve never even made it more than 400 miles from the earth - consider Van Broun's calculations in this into clip  http://www.moonmovie.com/moonmovie/intro.html 

Side note check your padded room comment 106</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;our whole system of physics forbids us to beleive that someone could go to the moon&#8221; Wittgenstein</p>
<p>&#8220;we believe that it isnt possible to get to the moon; but there might be people who believe that it is possible and that it sometimes happens.  we say: these people do not know a lot that we know.  and, let them be never so sure of their belief-they are wrong and we know it.  if we compare our suystem of knowledge with theirs then theirs is evidently the poorer one by far&#8221;<br />
Wittgenstein</p>
<p>well we havent made it to the moon yet - weve never even made it more than 400 miles from the earth - consider Van Broun&#8217;s calculations in this into clip  <a href='http://www.moonmovie.com/moonmovie/intro.html' rel='nofollow'>http://www.moonmovie.com/moonmovie/intro.html</a> </p>
<p>Side note check your padded room comment 106
</p>
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