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	<title>Comments on: Is it wrong to take PEDs?</title>
	<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/309</link>
	<description>How can you have the last word if you haven't heard the first?</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Earl N. Meyer</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/309#comment-17991</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/309#comment-17991</guid>
					<description>A "fantasy baseball" league of sorts?  The game is played for money.  If the owners and players perceive that fans get some use out of the game, they will be encouraged to continue.  No, I'm afraid Baseball must approach death as a sport before the people who do it for money get back to reality.  In actuality, it must cease to be profitable, for the good of the professional game.

"Playing for the Parents" is a different type of problem.  It embodies competition with others instead of one's self.  These others are not part of the normal rules of play, they are not your team, or the other team.  A "game", by definition, involves having a winner, and playing the game to win.  However, a "game", also by definition, involves voluntary play.  A person must feel and be free to choose to play or not.  

There are (I'm indirectly quoting James Carse here, I'm good, but not this good) 2 types of games.  Finite and infinite.

An infinite game is one that goes on forever, we are required to play, but we can change the rules as we go along, so that the game can go on forever.  Every one plays in an infinite game.

A finite game is one where participation is voluntary, but we cannot change the rules.  There are rules to determine what a team is, what each persons role is, when the game is over, who wins; everything.  

When parents cross the line, and turn a finite game into an infinite one, they betray the fundamentals of parenting.  This is a selfish action on their part.  The children simply don't understand.  They are simply naive and betrayed.  Responsible adults should know better, but seem to not (or maybe they're not responsible?).  

How does a selfish parent affect a child?  It creates another selfish adult, competing with other adults, doing whatever it takes to try to "win" in an infinite game (complete with getting pissed off whenever the rules change.  Ever done that before?).  

An infinite game, by Carse's definition, can have no winner, since it is infinite, and played to continue the game. The act of crossing finite and infinite games with one another in a mind that cannot begin to understand the real meaning of "it's only a game" is the problem.  Competing against one's self until the deeper meaning is understood is the only non-dysfunctional answer.

This is where the concept of "sport" has failed; it can be a tool to help develop the intellect, but instead it only propagates selfish greed.  This is why I do not watch sports.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A &#8220;fantasy baseball&#8221; league of sorts?  The game is played for money.  If the owners and players perceive that fans get some use out of the game, they will be encouraged to continue.  No, I&#8217;m afraid Baseball must approach death as a sport before the people who do it for money get back to reality.  In actuality, it must cease to be profitable, for the good of the professional game.</p>
<p>&#8220;Playing for the Parents&#8221; is a different type of problem.  It embodies competition with others instead of one&#8217;s self.  These others are not part of the normal rules of play, they are not your team, or the other team.  A &#8220;game&#8221;, by definition, involves having a winner, and playing the game to win.  However, a &#8220;game&#8221;, also by definition, involves voluntary play.  A person must feel and be free to choose to play or not.  </p>
<p>There are (I&#8217;m indirectly quoting James Carse here, I&#8217;m good, but not this good) 2 types of games.  Finite and infinite.</p>
<p>An infinite game is one that goes on forever, we are required to play, but we can change the rules as we go along, so that the game can go on forever.  Every one plays in an infinite game.</p>
<p>A finite game is one where participation is voluntary, but we cannot change the rules.  There are rules to determine what a team is, what each persons role is, when the game is over, who wins; everything.  </p>
<p>When parents cross the line, and turn a finite game into an infinite one, they betray the fundamentals of parenting.  This is a selfish action on their part.  The children simply don&#8217;t understand.  They are simply naive and betrayed.  Responsible adults should know better, but seem to not (or maybe they&#8217;re not responsible?).  </p>
<p>How does a selfish parent affect a child?  It creates another selfish adult, competing with other adults, doing whatever it takes to try to &#8220;win&#8221; in an infinite game (complete with getting pissed off whenever the rules change.  Ever done that before?).  </p>
<p>An infinite game, by Carse&#8217;s definition, can have no winner, since it is infinite, and played to continue the game. The act of crossing finite and infinite games with one another in a mind that cannot begin to understand the real meaning of &#8220;it&#8217;s only a game&#8221; is the problem.  Competing against one&#8217;s self until the deeper meaning is understood is the only non-dysfunctional answer.</p>
<p>This is where the concept of &#8220;sport&#8221; has failed; it can be a tool to help develop the intellect, but instead it only propagates selfish greed.  This is why I do not watch sports.
</p>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/309#comment-17674</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 21:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/309#comment-17674</guid>
					<description>Earl -- the only distinction I would introduce into the first half of your post is to suggest that many fans, I think, hate what the games have become yet continue to watch in an "as if" mode, pretending that they are watching something they remember from a long time ago, or from their imagination. Thus, instead of &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; railing against what the fans seem to have become, we should try to imagine how we can rescue the situation "after the revolution" so to speak.

On the second half of your essay, I would want to make even more distinctions. Even more generally than you have insightfully observed, I suggest that the problem the kids face is &lt;i&gt;playing for their parents&lt;/i&gt;, and this begins from a very early age and is not confined to team or organized sports. This narcissism ratifies the life-world of the adult by way of a vicarious and retrospective repair of his own failings, and also reinforces the child's own natural self-centeredness. I like your model of "kids playing just because they want to." However, it seems like the game played because it is wanted does entail the desire to win, if it is genuine play. It is not exactly that the boy wants to play better than the other boy, but I submit it is also not merely an aerobic exercise where "competing against oneself" is the operating principle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Earl &#8212; the only distinction I would introduce into the first half of your post is to suggest that many fans, I think, hate what the games have become yet continue to watch in an &#8220;as if&#8221; mode, pretending that they are watching something they remember from a long time ago, or from their imagination. Thus, instead of <i>only</i> railing against what the fans seem to have become, we should try to imagine how we can rescue the situation &#8220;after the revolution&#8221; so to speak.</p>
<p>On the second half of your essay, I would want to make even more distinctions. Even more generally than you have insightfully observed, I suggest that the problem the kids face is <i>playing for their parents</i>, and this begins from a very early age and is not confined to team or organized sports. This narcissism ratifies the life-world of the adult by way of a vicarious and retrospective repair of his own failings, and also reinforces the child&#8217;s own natural self-centeredness. I like your model of &#8220;kids playing just because they want to.&#8221; However, it seems like the game played because it is wanted does entail the desire to win, if it is genuine play. It is not exactly that the boy wants to play better than the other boy, but I submit it is also not merely an aerobic exercise where &#8220;competing against oneself&#8221; is the operating principle.
</p>
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		<title>by: Earl N. Meyer</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/309#comment-17513</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/309#comment-17513</guid>
					<description>I don't watch professional sports.  It's a bunch of people who are paid to entertain us, only I'm not entertained.  I could not care less if they take Peds or not.

Now, is it any less entertaining if they take Peds?  No; it is more so.  In a world driven by greed, where ticket prices have (so I hear) skyrocketed to keep up with salaries that have also (so I hear) skyrocketed, anything they can do to get the attention of the fan(atic)s who are entertained my this particular dog-and-pony show they consider acceptable.

If they were unable to beat the records in the records books because the human body can only be pushed so far, they change the rules so their bodies can go further.  It keeps the attention of the average hot-dog-eater, so they'll keep paying top dollar for a seat.

If they get criticized for using PED's to beat the records books (in order to keep fan(addict)s interested, they will again change the rules; either to make the use of PEDs okay, or anything else they happen to think of, as long as they keep the attention of the fan(idiot)s who keep paying money to watch the circus.

Now; give me a game with kids playing just because they want to; not because their parents tell them their future depends on it, or some coach has convinced them they aren't human beings if they don't win.  That is probably good ball. 

They are not competing with anybody but themselves.  They aren't doing it for the fan(junkie)s; they aren't doing it because some failed adult chooses to live their empty life vicariously through them; they are only doing it because they want to.  They are not trying to be better than anybody.  They just want to be as much as they can, on their own.

Life (baseball) isn't about competition against others.  Greed is.  Life is only about us, each of us, versus ourselves.  Get back to reality people, and stop thinking what everybody else tells you to think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t watch professional sports.  It&#8217;s a bunch of people who are paid to entertain us, only I&#8217;m not entertained.  I could not care less if they take Peds or not.</p>
<p>Now, is it any less entertaining if they take Peds?  No; it is more so.  In a world driven by greed, where ticket prices have (so I hear) skyrocketed to keep up with salaries that have also (so I hear) skyrocketed, anything they can do to get the attention of the fan(atic)s who are entertained my this particular dog-and-pony show they consider acceptable.</p>
<p>If they were unable to beat the records in the records books because the human body can only be pushed so far, they change the rules so their bodies can go further.  It keeps the attention of the average hot-dog-eater, so they&#8217;ll keep paying top dollar for a seat.</p>
<p>If they get criticized for using PED&#8217;s to beat the records books (in order to keep fan(addict)s interested, they will again change the rules; either to make the use of PEDs okay, or anything else they happen to think of, as long as they keep the attention of the fan(idiot)s who keep paying money to watch the circus.</p>
<p>Now; give me a game with kids playing just because they want to; not because their parents tell them their future depends on it, or some coach has convinced them they aren&#8217;t human beings if they don&#8217;t win.  That is probably good ball. </p>
<p>They are not competing with anybody but themselves.  They aren&#8217;t doing it for the fan(junkie)s; they aren&#8217;t doing it because some failed adult chooses to live their empty life vicariously through them; they are only doing it because they want to.  They are not trying to be better than anybody.  They just want to be as much as they can, on their own.</p>
<p>Life (baseball) isn&#8217;t about competition against others.  Greed is.  Life is only about us, each of us, versus ourselves.  Get back to reality people, and stop thinking what everybody else tells you to think.
</p>
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		<title>by: steve hoffmeister</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/309#comment-17384</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 02:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/309#comment-17384</guid>
					<description>yes the "fairness" issue is at large and, as you have stated, what is 'fair'?  It is of note that many on [Mitchell's] list are good players... ohh, but then there are many that are not. Wow, so can we perfectly show that all across the board that the enhancement is helping or "unfair". NO. so now what?

I also belive that in all fields these things have been going on for some time. This i believe is just another swipe by our all-too-powerful government to bring down another stronghold it has allowed to grow. By this i mean: first it was the AT&#038;T break up, then Microsoft attack, then Big Tobacco attack, and now MLB. All these have in common the government snooping in and making laws that favor a group (fair?) then later on when the group gets out of hand smashing it down.

On the other side what of an outfielder that has large hands and thus a bigger glove..thus allowing him to make amazing saves in the outfield. Or in basketball they do hand streching exercises to allow for the palming of the ball while dunking. You mentioned the elbow support but what of any other device that makes up for the lack in what ever area for some, but not all?

I also suggest the comparison that since this is entertainment we compare it to the movies: What of the starlet that has breast enhancement of hip enhancement or lip work? This is not fair to those that are naturally made well by the creator.

In the end it's all about the buck and if there is some way that washington can get its hands on more they will and that is where we should ask ...are you (washington) fair?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes the &#8220;fairness&#8221; issue is at large and, as you have stated, what is &#8216;fair&#8217;?  It is of note that many on [Mitchell&#8217;s] list are good players&#8230; ohh, but then there are many that are not. Wow, so can we perfectly show that all across the board that the enhancement is helping or &#8220;unfair&#8221;. NO. so now what?</p>
<p>I also belive that in all fields these things have been going on for some time. This i believe is just another swipe by our all-too-powerful government to bring down another stronghold it has allowed to grow. By this i mean: first it was the AT&#038;T break up, then Microsoft attack, then Big Tobacco attack, and now MLB. All these have in common the government snooping in and making laws that favor a group (fair?) then later on when the group gets out of hand smashing it down.</p>
<p>On the other side what of an outfielder that has large hands and thus a bigger glove..thus allowing him to make amazing saves in the outfield. Or in basketball they do hand streching exercises to allow for the palming of the ball while dunking. You mentioned the elbow support but what of any other device that makes up for the lack in what ever area for some, but not all?</p>
<p>I also suggest the comparison that since this is entertainment we compare it to the movies: What of the starlet that has breast enhancement of hip enhancement or lip work? This is not fair to those that are naturally made well by the creator.</p>
<p>In the end it&#8217;s all about the buck and if there is some way that washington can get its hands on more they will and that is where we should ask &#8230;are you (washington) fair?
</p>
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