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	<title>Comments on: Westminster Honors</title>
	<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320</link>
	<description>How can you have the last word if you haven't heard the first?</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-22120</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-22120</guid>
					<description>Yes, we have to realize that our people are in the grip of a controlling fear. Courage is needed to overcome that fear, and begin to think with honesty. Once "real debate can begin," the real debates won't take very long -- even the ones that seem intractable and insoluble in our current atmosphere of fear. What is difficult is not understanding the truth, but overcoming one's fear of the consequences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, we have to realize that our people are in the grip of a controlling fear. Courage is needed to overcome that fear, and begin to think with honesty. Once &#8220;real debate can begin,&#8221; the real debates won&#8217;t take very long &#8212; even the ones that seem intractable and insoluble in our current atmosphere of fear. What is difficult is not understanding the truth, but overcoming one&#8217;s fear of the consequences.
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		<title>by: MRB</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-22049</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-22049</guid>
					<description>Andrew -

Good comments and thank you on behalf of my colleague for your defense.

As you know, we live in an era where taboo labels are applied to people freely with little thought. Our approach is, generally, not to fight the labels, at least not directly. If Mr. Traphagen wants to label us Nazis, that is okay, just so long as he provides us with a definition. We can then either embrace or disown the label.

What we want to do is surgically remove the rhetorical shock that people intend by using such labels. This is half the battle. When the hurlers of labels realize that it does not work with us, two things happen. First, it emboldens others not to be afraid to be labeled an &lt;em&gt;x&lt;/em&gt;. Second, it forces the hurler to either defend his label, which is almost always based on a caricature, or bug out, showing that he is a fraud. In the former case, we can have a real discussion, in the later we don't waste our time.

Edgar Steele provides us with a fine model of this tactic. When he is called an "anti-semite" his reply is, "that's 'Mr. Anti-semite' to you." In other words, he is willing to provisionally accept the label, but demands that his opponent then interact with his arguments. His opponents are used to cowing others merely by the use of labels. When he calls their bluff, they usually have nothing to offer.

Our strategy is likewise to call our opponents' bluff, for while we are willing to be argued out of our views, we are not willing to be bullied out of them.

This is what I call applied confessionalism. I hold to the Westminster Standards. This is where I draw the line. I will argue with someone about these standards, but such an argument is apologetic in nature. On extra-confessional and catechetical topics, I am much more open minded. On these issues, while I may have opinions, even strong ones, I am willing to be refuted. This gives me a great sense of liberty; I don't fear label-mongers.

Our hope is that more and more will also be freed from the grip of the pc and judaic thought police who tell us that our beliefs must conform to their anti-Christ worldview. Once this grip is loosed, real debate can begin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew -</p>
<p>Good comments and thank you on behalf of my colleague for your defense.</p>
<p>As you know, we live in an era where taboo labels are applied to people freely with little thought. Our approach is, generally, not to fight the labels, at least not directly. If Mr. Traphagen wants to label us Nazis, that is okay, just so long as he provides us with a definition. We can then either embrace or disown the label.</p>
<p>What we want to do is surgically remove the rhetorical shock that people intend by using such labels. This is half the battle. When the hurlers of labels realize that it does not work with us, two things happen. First, it emboldens others not to be afraid to be labeled an <em>x</em>. Second, it forces the hurler to either defend his label, which is almost always based on a caricature, or bug out, showing that he is a fraud. In the former case, we can have a real discussion, in the later we don&#8217;t waste our time.</p>
<p>Edgar Steele provides us with a fine model of this tactic. When he is called an &#8220;anti-semite&#8221; his reply is, &#8220;that&#8217;s &#8216;Mr. Anti-semite&#8217; to you.&#8221; In other words, he is willing to provisionally accept the label, but demands that his opponent then interact with his arguments. His opponents are used to cowing others merely by the use of labels. When he calls their bluff, they usually have nothing to offer.</p>
<p>Our strategy is likewise to call our opponents&#8217; bluff, for while we are willing to be argued out of our views, we are not willing to be bullied out of them.</p>
<p>This is what I call applied confessionalism. I hold to the Westminster Standards. This is where I draw the line. I will argue with someone about these standards, but such an argument is apologetic in nature. On extra-confessional and catechetical topics, I am much more open minded. On these issues, while I may have opinions, even strong ones, I am willing to be refuted. This gives me a great sense of liberty; I don&#8217;t fear label-mongers.</p>
<p>Our hope is that more and more will also be freed from the grip of the pc and judaic thought police who tell us that our beliefs must conform to their anti-Christ worldview. Once this grip is loosed, real debate can begin.
</p>
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		<title>by: Andrew Taylor</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-22035</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-22035</guid>
					<description>Tim, you're a far more charitable and gracious man than I. All I know about Dr. Conn is from Dr. North's book and similar works, so I'll defer to your judgment on him. I don't think Dr. North is infallible, but his judgment about people (rather than events like Y2K) is generally spot-on.

Regarding Mr. Traphagen: He shows up here and baits you with a question about the icon -- which you answer, in the words of Luther, "without horns and without teeth." Rather than interact with anything on the blog, Mr. Traphagen simply dismisses it and, by extension, you -- his former seminary colleague, who extended to whom a gracious welcome -- as a contemporary incarnation of National Socialism.

Your genteel response to this insinuation -- which is the equivalent of the kiss of death in our politically-correct society -- shows you to be a Christian gentleman. May our gracious God bring me to such a place of sanctification.

(As an aside, yes, I'm well aware that most thoughtful people wouldn't get too excited about being called a "Nazi," as it is a wax nose charge. But that doesn't diminish the malicious intent of the person who employs it against arguments, individuals, or organizations he doesn't like).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, you&#8217;re a far more charitable and gracious man than I. All I know about Dr. Conn is from Dr. North&#8217;s book and similar works, so I&#8217;ll defer to your judgment on him. I don&#8217;t think Dr. North is infallible, but his judgment about people (rather than events like Y2K) is generally spot-on.</p>
<p>Regarding Mr. Traphagen: He shows up here and baits you with a question about the icon &#8212; which you answer, in the words of Luther, &#8220;without horns and without teeth.&#8221; Rather than interact with anything on the blog, Mr. Traphagen simply dismisses it and, by extension, you &#8212; his former seminary colleague, who extended to whom a gracious welcome &#8212; as a contemporary incarnation of National Socialism.</p>
<p>Your genteel response to this insinuation &#8212; which is the equivalent of the kiss of death in our politically-correct society &#8212; shows you to be a Christian gentleman. May our gracious God bring me to such a place of sanctification.</p>
<p>(As an aside, yes, I&#8217;m well aware that most thoughtful people wouldn&#8217;t get too excited about being called a &#8220;Nazi,&#8221; as it is a wax nose charge. But that doesn&#8217;t diminish the malicious intent of the person who employs it against arguments, individuals, or organizations he doesn&#8217;t like).
</p>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-22025</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-22025</guid>
					<description>Andrew -- Harvie Conn spoke at my church back in the 70's and at the time I was quite impressed by his wisdom and humor. And he was a man of great courage with his work in Korea. I can't remember what Gary said, but let's at least nuance it. Mark is a good guy and I wish he liked our blog -- or would take a stab at rebutting what he doesn't like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew &#8212; Harvie Conn spoke at my church back in the 70&#8217;s and at the time I was quite impressed by his wisdom and humor. And he was a man of great courage with his work in Korea. I can&#8217;t remember what Gary said, but let&#8217;s at least nuance it. Mark is a good guy and I wish he liked our blog &#8212; or would take a stab at rebutting what he doesn&#8217;t like.
</p>
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		<title>by: Andrew Taylor</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-22023</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-22023</guid>
					<description>I wouldn't be interested in what Mark Traphagen thinks about this site, or anything else, for that matter. Visit his blog and you'll see that he worships at the altar of Harvie Conn. (For those of you who know little or nothing about the illustrious Conn-man, read Gary North's "Westminster's Confession"). That tells you all you need to know about him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t be interested in what Mark Traphagen thinks about this site, or anything else, for that matter. Visit his blog and you&#8217;ll see that he worships at the altar of Harvie Conn. (For those of you who know little or nothing about the illustrious Conn-man, read Gary North&#8217;s &#8220;Westminster&#8217;s Confession&#8221;). That tells you all you need to know about him.
</p>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-21404</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:54:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-21404</guid>
					<description>Well, another icon idea I've wanted to try is a noose -- but it's hard to fit that into a square profile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, another icon idea I&#8217;ve wanted to try is a noose &#8212; but it&#8217;s hard to fit that into a square profile.
</p>
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		<title>by: MRB</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-21328</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-21328</guid>
					<description>Mark, 

Please elaborate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, </p>
<p>Please elaborate.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mark Traphagen</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-21324</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-21324</guid>
					<description>Nah, now that I've read some of this site, all I see is a swastika.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nah, now that I&#8217;ve read some of this site, all I see is a swastika.
</p>
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		<title>by: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-21307</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-21307</guid>
					<description>Okay, I see it now. I like the symbol. I would only be worried if it suggested a star of David, or an American flag.

While we're on webpage cosmetics, do you use a category plugin, or is the organization part of the Indexnet theme?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I see it now. I like the symbol. I would only be worried if it suggested a star of David, or an American flag.</p>
<p>While we&#8217;re on webpage cosmetics, do you use a category plugin, or is the organization part of the Indexnet theme?
</p>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-21305</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/320#comment-21305</guid>
					<description>Well, the upside-down "V" at the bottom is the link. The shanks of the W don't connect directly, it's sort of cubistic. It seems so to me, but I make no claim to being an artist. Perhaps we should revert to the simple St Andrew's?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the upside-down &#8220;V&#8221; at the bottom is the link. The shanks of the W don&#8217;t connect directly, it&#8217;s sort of cubistic. It seems so to me, but I make no claim to being an artist. Perhaps we should revert to the simple St Andrew&#8217;s?
</p>
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