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	<title>Comments on: Noll on Bible and Slavery in US History</title>
	<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339</link>
	<description>How can you have the last word if you haven't heard the first?</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-26057</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 17:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-26057</guid>
					<description>At any rate, tying this discussion back to the post, I would say that Noll does not mention the angle of man-stealing in the historical discussion because it wasn't seen as very important. Apparently, some abolitionists did try that angle, since Dabney addresses it, though buried deep in the book. And Dabney repudiates the slave TRADE as something wicked that New England hypocrisy brought about. But the international slave trade (in which the South did not take part) had ended more than 50 years before the War of Northern Aggression, so that wasn't the hot issue any more, and it would have been quite implausible for the New England abolitionists to raise the question 50 years later. It would be one thing if they had said, "oops we may have sold you stolen merchandize; here is your gold back if you give it back so we can make it right." The Yankees were of course making no such offer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At any rate, tying this discussion back to the post, I would say that Noll does not mention the angle of man-stealing in the historical discussion because it wasn&#8217;t seen as very important. Apparently, some abolitionists did try that angle, since Dabney addresses it, though buried deep in the book. And Dabney repudiates the slave TRADE as something wicked that New England hypocrisy brought about. But the international slave trade (in which the South did not take part) had ended more than 50 years before the War of Northern Aggression, so that wasn&#8217;t the hot issue any more, and it would have been quite implausible for the New England abolitionists to raise the question 50 years later. It would be one thing if they had said, &#8220;oops we may have sold you stolen merchandize; here is your gold back if you give it back so we can make it right.&#8221; The Yankees were of course making no such offer.
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		<title>by: Jim Harris</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-26056</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 16:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-26056</guid>
					<description>Yes, but!  IF the aggressor is captured by the defendant.  Not likely in many aggressor wars.  In the slave trade wars it seems unlikely that taking slaves would be just, if you really believe your example of the Americans and Iraqis.  I doubt that the defending tribes were taking slaves from the aggressor tribes and selling them to the New World.  

And there is still the very problematic question of who is the aggressor in war, or whether the "aggressor" or "defender" is just, and who decides.  

And how, if the purchaser knows, or ought to know, that the merchandise was stolen?  Law suits have been determined against the receiving of stolen goods on the basis that the obtainer SHOULD and reasonable COULD have known that they were stolen.  How much more if they were obtained KNOWING they were stolen?  We're talking about a Biblical ethic here, not merely a secular determination.  I can't believe John Newton really believed the slaves he was transporting were war criminals.  It never occurred to him to ask for a legal determination in the cases of all those men, not to mention the women and children, as to their status?  They were, after all, human beings, not coffee beans.

As an aside, Scripture has no interest in examining the culpability or guilt in the case of the Mideonites because they are incidental to the point of the story.  This is often the case in Scripture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but!  IF the aggressor is captured by the defendant.  Not likely in many aggressor wars.  In the slave trade wars it seems unlikely that taking slaves would be just, if you really believe your example of the Americans and Iraqis.  I doubt that the defending tribes were taking slaves from the aggressor tribes and selling them to the New World.  </p>
<p>And there is still the very problematic question of who is the aggressor in war, or whether the &#8220;aggressor&#8221; or &#8220;defender&#8221; is just, and who decides.  </p>
<p>And how, if the purchaser knows, or ought to know, that the merchandise was stolen?  Law suits have been determined against the receiving of stolen goods on the basis that the obtainer SHOULD and reasonable COULD have known that they were stolen.  How much more if they were obtained KNOWING they were stolen?  We&#8217;re talking about a Biblical ethic here, not merely a secular determination.  I can&#8217;t believe John Newton really believed the slaves he was transporting were war criminals.  It never occurred to him to ask for a legal determination in the cases of all those men, not to mention the women and children, as to their status?  They were, after all, human beings, not coffee beans.</p>
<p>As an aside, Scripture has no interest in examining the culpability or guilt in the case of the Mideonites because they are incidental to the point of the story.  This is often the case in Scripture.
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-26007</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 02:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-26007</guid>
					<description>Jim -- re #10, it would be the Iraqis that would have the right to enslave American soldiers (as the unjust aggressors), not vice versa.

There are some confusions in #12. The "Holy War" was supposed to involve extermination exclusively; the deal with the Gibeonites was unintentional, though honored. Enslavement was not commanded in that connection. As Bahnsen pointed out, the Holy War was positive command, not standing. However, the principle of redeeming one's life at the option of the party having the right to it appears to be a moral and universal principle -- indeed, intuitively obvious once understood. If I have the right to demand someone's life as recompense for his offense, then a fortiori I can accept a lower penalty. Jordan discusses this somewhere. So, if someone is captured with murderous intent, certainly he can be enslaved in lieu of execution -- so it seems to me anyway. To argue this in more detail would probably call for a whole post.

There are many ways to become a slave lawfully under the biblical ethic -- selling oneself, being sold by one's parents, by right of creditor, and in lieu of life-forfeiting penalty.

In the history of humanity, slavery is pretty "normal." It is just one more station of life one can be born into like many others, some high, some low.

Meanwhile, a merchant that intentionally pawns "hot" merchandise is guilty of theft, but one who inadvertently passes such merchandise is not. The same principle would apply in the slave trade. No one ever mentions the Mideonites as the guilty party when they bought Joseph from his brothers while passing through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim &#8212; re #10, it would be the Iraqis that would have the right to enslave American soldiers (as the unjust aggressors), not vice versa.</p>
<p>There are some confusions in #12. The &#8220;Holy War&#8221; was supposed to involve extermination exclusively; the deal with the Gibeonites was unintentional, though honored. Enslavement was not commanded in that connection. As Bahnsen pointed out, the Holy War was positive command, not standing. However, the principle of redeeming one&#8217;s life at the option of the party having the right to it appears to be a moral and universal principle &#8212; indeed, intuitively obvious once understood. If I have the right to demand someone&#8217;s life as recompense for his offense, then a fortiori I can accept a lower penalty. Jordan discusses this somewhere. So, if someone is captured with murderous intent, certainly he can be enslaved in lieu of execution &#8212; so it seems to me anyway. To argue this in more detail would probably call for a whole post.</p>
<p>There are many ways to become a slave lawfully under the biblical ethic &#8212; selling oneself, being sold by one&#8217;s parents, by right of creditor, and in lieu of life-forfeiting penalty.</p>
<p>In the history of humanity, slavery is pretty &#8220;normal.&#8221; It is just one more station of life one can be born into like many others, some high, some low.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, a merchant that intentionally pawns &#8220;hot&#8221; merchandise is guilty of theft, but one who inadvertently passes such merchandise is not. The same principle would apply in the slave trade. No one ever mentions the Mideonites as the guilty party when they bought Joseph from his brothers while passing through.
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		<title>by: Jim Harris</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25878</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25878</guid>
					<description>On further reflection, without giving it due study, my suspicion is that the law allowing for slaves taken in war was addressing Holy War only.  Those would be slaves taken from a nation (tribe) which was being destroyed at God's command by the Army of God because "its cup of iniquity was full."  That is, the tribe was steeped in idolatry, and the taking of slaves was allowed for redemptive purposes.  Today (since the passing away of the Jewish State, WCF XIX:III, IV) there is no "Holy Army" of course, so it may be that the law no longer applies.  Today the whole issue of "just" war is so complicated.  I would like to know more about the difference between kidnapping and taking slaves in war, and whether there is any war since 33AD which allows for the taking of permanent non-voluntary slaves.
There is a "Holy Army" today, and it does take slaves, but its weapons are preaching, prayer, and sacraments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On further reflection, without giving it due study, my suspicion is that the law allowing for slaves taken in war was addressing Holy War only.  Those would be slaves taken from a nation (tribe) which was being destroyed at God&#8217;s command by the Army of God because &#8220;its cup of iniquity was full.&#8221;  That is, the tribe was steeped in idolatry, and the taking of slaves was allowed for redemptive purposes.  Today (since the passing away of the Jewish State, WCF XIX:III, IV) there is no &#8220;Holy Army&#8221; of course, so it may be that the law no longer applies.  Today the whole issue of &#8220;just&#8221; war is so complicated.  I would like to know more about the difference between kidnapping and taking slaves in war, and whether there is any war since 33AD which allows for the taking of permanent non-voluntary slaves.<br />
There is a &#8220;Holy Army&#8221; today, and it does take slaves, but its weapons are preaching, prayer, and sacraments.
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		<title>by: ElizaF</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25826</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25826</guid>
					<description>Interestingly enough, slavery and involuntary servitude is still legal in the USA. The 13th amendment allows for these as punishment of a crime "whereof the party shall have been duly convicted". No mention of race, gender, age, or economic status.  Food for thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly enough, slavery and involuntary servitude is still legal in the USA. The 13th amendment allows for these as punishment of a crime &#8220;whereof the party shall have been duly convicted&#8221;. No mention of race, gender, age, or economic status.  Food for thought.
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		<title>by: Jim Harris</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25800</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25800</guid>
					<description>For that matter, how about current wars?  Anybody want an Iraqi slave?  "We" could at least sell them to countries where slavery is still legal.  And maybe it should be in this country.  After all, any one who is in debt is a slave to the creditor.  It is only a tiny jump to make slavery involuntary!  I'm not serious of course.  But the principles don't seem to be different from the 17th century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For that matter, how about current wars?  Anybody want an Iraqi slave?  &#8220;We&#8221; could at least sell them to countries where slavery is still legal.  And maybe it should be in this country.  After all, any one who is in debt is a slave to the creditor.  It is only a tiny jump to make slavery involuntary!  I&#8217;m not serious of course.  But the principles don&#8217;t seem to be different from the 17th century.
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		<title>by: Jim Harris</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25796</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25796</guid>
					<description>I haven't read (or don't remember) what Dabney wrote. I suppose one can define war in different ways.  If one tribe goes against another tribe for the purpose of capturing it to sell to slavers, one could define that as war.  But then you have the issue of "just" war.  As we have seen in the modern era, it doesn't take much for one party to decide to go to war.  Maybe money?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read (or don&#8217;t remember) what Dabney wrote. I suppose one can define war in different ways.  If one tribe goes against another tribe for the purpose of capturing it to sell to slavers, one could define that as war.  But then you have the issue of &#8220;just&#8221; war.  As we have seen in the modern era, it doesn&#8217;t take much for one party to decide to go to war.  Maybe money?
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25707</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 03:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25707</guid>
					<description>Jim -- by that I assume you mean the biblical law against man-stealing, and the question of whether this a fortiori prohibits slavery?

Actually Dabney did address that argument in a section buried deep in the Defense, on pp. 288-292.

I would add: The vast majority of slaves historically did not enter into that state by being kidnapped, but as taken captive in war. No doubt a few were kidnapped; just like a few things for sale at the store might have been stolen. In a way, the situation is analogous to buying things in a non-commodity market, say antiques. Some antiques are undoubtedly stolen; but normally one "trusts the system" in entering an antique store, and does not launch an investigation before buying an antique. And at some point, even if a piece were one day much later discovered to have been stolen and pawned off to the shop, eventually the claim passes out of existence.

This is why if someone shows up at your door and says, "this land was bequeathed to my great-great grandfather by Chief Winnebago, and thus it passes to me" you can pretty much shrug your shoulders and say, "not according to the County Clerk."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim &#8212; by that I assume you mean the biblical law against man-stealing, and the question of whether this a fortiori prohibits slavery?</p>
<p>Actually Dabney did address that argument in a section buried deep in the Defense, on pp. 288-292.</p>
<p>I would add: The vast majority of slaves historically did not enter into that state by being kidnapped, but as taken captive in war. No doubt a few were kidnapped; just like a few things for sale at the store might have been stolen. In a way, the situation is analogous to buying things in a non-commodity market, say antiques. Some antiques are undoubtedly stolen; but normally one &#8220;trusts the system&#8221; in entering an antique store, and does not launch an investigation before buying an antique. And at some point, even if a piece were one day much later discovered to have been stolen and pawned off to the shop, eventually the claim passes out of existence.</p>
<p>This is why if someone shows up at your door and says, &#8220;this land was bequeathed to my great-great grandfather by Chief Winnebago, and thus it passes to me&#8221; you can pretty much shrug your shoulders and say, &#8220;not according to the County Clerk.&#8221;
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		<title>by: Jim Harris</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25689</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25689</guid>
					<description>I find it curious that seemingly no one addresses the issue of Kidnapping.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it curious that seemingly no one addresses the issue of Kidnapping.
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25030</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/339#comment-25030</guid>
					<description>Meanwhile, slavery &lt;a href="http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Niger-Slavery.html?_r=1&#38;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow"&gt;continues apace in Africa&lt;/a&gt; itself, probably because Noll's brilliant insights have not yet been translated into Swahili.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meanwhile, slavery <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Niger-Slavery.html?_r=1&amp;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">continues apace in Africa</a> itself, probably because Noll&#8217;s brilliant insights have not yet been translated into Swahili.
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