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	<title>Comments on: When I hear the words &#8220;semper reformanda,&#8221; I reach for my revolver</title>
	<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53</link>
	<description>How can you have the last word if you haven't heard the first?</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: ElizaF</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-29194</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 23:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-29194</guid>
					<description>Carl Trueman has an article in the most recent Free Church of Scotland Monthly Record discussing the phrase. The title is "Wrongheaded Reformation". He also is dubious about its source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl Trueman has an article in the most recent Free Church of Scotland Monthly Record discussing the phrase. The title is &#8220;Wrongheaded Reformation&#8221;. He also is dubious about its source.
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		<title>by: Alistair</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-18039</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-18039</guid>
					<description>Always been suspicious of the way this phrase is quoted every time someone wants to change something (from a tap to the trinity) in a Reformed Church.  It is quoted in a way that suggests that Reformed ministers in the 1640s were heading their notepaper with it. I am glad to hear of a named originator and the suggestions of a context.

I think the phrase has some value - in the sense of being continually responding to God's transforming word. But not in the sense of recruiting the magisterial reformation into any church disagreement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Always been suspicious of the way this phrase is quoted every time someone wants to change something (from a tap to the trinity) in a Reformed Church.  It is quoted in a way that suggests that Reformed ministers in the 1640s were heading their notepaper with it. I am glad to hear of a named originator and the suggestions of a context.</p>
<p>I think the phrase has some value - in the sense of being continually responding to God&#8217;s transforming word. But not in the sense of recruiting the magisterial reformation into any church disagreement.
</p>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-16016</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-16016</guid>
					<description>Kepler (or other readers) -- I will soon be reporting on the early Pietist movement, especially as it was taken up by Prussia. So, if you have any links or documents of early Pietist use of the phrase, please forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kepler (or other readers) &#8212; I will soon be reporting on the early Pietist movement, especially as it was taken up by Prussia. So, if you have any links or documents of early Pietist use of the phrase, please forward.
</p>
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		<title>by: Kepler</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-15881</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-15881</guid>
					<description>Well, the Lutheran pietists picked up on the phrase pretty quickly, and were using it late in the 17th or very early in the 18th century.  And, like in may of the Reformed traditions, it has survived in Lutheranism, in both pietist and confessional circles.

I haven't seen the book myself (the only copy in existence that I know of is in the Amsterdam University library), and when I lived in Holland it was not something I was looking into, although it came up recently in work in a completely different context, which is why I have spent some time chasing it down.

But as for context...I suspect (and there is a great deal of evidence for this suspicion) that it originates out of the Federal vs. Puritan controversies of the 1650s and 60s.  Koelman (who was of the 'Puritan' variety) likely was arguing that the Federal Theology of Johannes Coccejus was a form of heterodoxy (if not outright heresy) that needed "reforming" (read: purging).  

Best guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the Lutheran pietists picked up on the phrase pretty quickly, and were using it late in the 17th or very early in the 18th century.  And, like in may of the Reformed traditions, it has survived in Lutheranism, in both pietist and confessional circles.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t seen the book myself (the only copy in existence that I know of is in the Amsterdam University library), and when I lived in Holland it was not something I was looking into, although it came up recently in work in a completely different context, which is why I have spent some time chasing it down.</p>
<p>But as for context&#8230;I suspect (and there is a great deal of evidence for this suspicion) that it originates out of the Federal vs. Puritan controversies of the 1650s and 60s.  Koelman (who was of the &#8216;Puritan&#8217; variety) likely was arguing that the Federal Theology of Johannes Coccejus was a form of heterodoxy (if not outright heresy) that needed &#8220;reforming&#8221; (read: purging).  </p>
<p>Best guess.
</p>
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		<title>by: Tim H</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-15821</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-15821</guid>
					<description>Kepler-- good sleuthing. We'll record the current front-runner as Koelman, 1678. 

Can you tell us some of the context for which he coined the phrase? I'm fantasizing, that rather than it being something like "let's rethink the Trinity," the conversation may have been something like:

"Gentlemen, I move that we change the tap in the church basement to Heinekken."

"Outrageous! We've always used Grolsch."

"Ja, but... ecclesia reformata semper reformanda."

On a more serious note... has your research uncovered any Lutheran, Roman, or Eastern theologian that would refer to his own church as ecclesia reformata?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kepler&#8211; good sleuthing. We&#8217;ll record the current front-runner as Koelman, 1678. </p>
<p>Can you tell us some of the context for which he coined the phrase? I&#8217;m fantasizing, that rather than it being something like &#8220;let&#8217;s rethink the Trinity,&#8221; the conversation may have been something like:</p>
<p>&#8220;Gentlemen, I move that we change the tap in the church basement to Heinekken.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Outrageous! We&#8217;ve always used Grolsch.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Ja, but&#8230; ecclesia reformata semper reformanda.&#8221;</p>
<p>On a more serious note&#8230; has your research uncovered any Lutheran, Roman, or Eastern theologian that would refer to his own church as ecclesia reformata?
</p>
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		<title>by: Kepler</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-15800</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 03:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-15800</guid>
					<description>The source of this (very orthodox!) phrase appears to have been Jacobus Koelman (published under the pseudonym Christophilius Eubulus), from the book &lt;i&gt;De pointen van nodige reformatie omtrent de kerk&lt;/i&gt; (VLissingen: 1678).  (The title translates as '&lt;i&gt;Points where the Church needs Reforming&lt;/i&gt;').  Koelman was a student of Gijsbert Voetius and Johannes Hoornbeeck.  

The *point* of the phrase (which is properly translated as 'the church reformed and always reforming') is that even though there had been a reformation, the church is *always* in danger of straying (and indeed does stray) and thus needs always to be called back to the Word of God.  In this sense, 'church' does not mean specifically the "Reformed Church" but simply the Church of Christ on Earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The source of this (very orthodox!) phrase appears to have been Jacobus Koelman (published under the pseudonym Christophilius Eubulus), from the book <i>De pointen van nodige reformatie omtrent de kerk</i> (VLissingen: 1678).  (The title translates as &#8216;<i>Points where the Church needs Reforming</i>&#8216;).  Koelman was a student of Gijsbert Voetius and Johannes Hoornbeeck.  </p>
<p>The *point* of the phrase (which is properly translated as &#8216;the church reformed and always reforming&#8217;) is that even though there had been a reformation, the church is *always* in danger of straying (and indeed does stray) and thus needs always to be called back to the Word of God.  In this sense, &#8216;church&#8217; does not mean specifically the &#8220;Reformed Church&#8221; but simply the Church of Christ on Earth.
</p>
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		<title>by: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-15657</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 03:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-15657</guid>
					<description>Correction: &lt;a href="http://www.cmfnow.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&#038;ProdID=5492" rel="nofollow"&gt;This&lt;/a&gt; is the better link for the Critcal Thinking course. It's a cd with all 19 mp3's on it for only 29.95.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction: <a href="http://www.cmfnow.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&#038;ProdID=5492" rel="nofollow">This</a> is the better link for the Critcal Thinking course. It&#8217;s a cd with all 19 mp3&#8217;s on it for only 29.95.
</p>
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		<title>by: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-14787</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-14787</guid>
					<description>You could have been more helpful than that, TJH. Allow me...

[Go &lt;a href="http://www.cmfnow.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&#038;Category=457" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and] Put them on you iPod. It's a steal for around 40 bucks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You could have been more helpful than that, TJH. Allow me&#8230;</p>
<p>[Go <a href="http://www.cmfnow.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&#038;Category=457" rel="nofollow">here</a> and] Put them on you iPod. It&#8217;s a steal for around 40 bucks.
</p>
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		<title>by: TJH</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-14784</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-14784</guid>
					<description>jk -- there's a critical thinking course available on tape from Covenant Media Foundation. Highly recommended.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jk &#8212; there&#8217;s a critical thinking course available on tape from Covenant Media Foundation. Highly recommended.
</p>
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		<title>by: jk</title>
		<link>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-14756</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 03:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://butler-harris.org/archives/53#comment-14756</guid>
					<description>It's obvious that the reformers wouldn't agree with "ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda" since they viewed themselves as mini-popes, and since they kept certain non-Biblical and even anti-Biblical traditions of Rome, like infant baptism and the ever virginity of Mary.  They wouldn't want a REAL reformation to come around after their death and remove their favorite Romish fables, now would they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s obvious that the reformers wouldn&#8217;t agree with &#8220;ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda&#8221; since they viewed themselves as mini-popes, and since they kept certain non-Biblical and even anti-Biblical traditions of Rome, like infant baptism and the ever virginity of Mary.  They wouldn&#8217;t want a REAL reformation to come around after their death and remove their favorite Romish fables, now would they?
</p>
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